James Baldwin and Nikki Giovanni are two of the most prolific Black writers of our time. Baldwin, known for his essays and novels, wrote about race and identity through the lens of someone who grew up in poverty in New York City. Giovanni’s poetry explored a wide range of topics, including Black love and family.

The writers met in London in 1971 to record a conversation for a PBS Black culture series called “SOUL!” During their riveting two-hour talk, the pair smoked plenty of cigarettes and covered everything from slavery to gender roles within the Black community. Although their gender identities and their 20-year age gap often led to some healthy disagreement, so much of what came out of their brilliant discussion is still relevant today.

This is the story of the conversation between James Baldwin and Nikki Giovanni.

Two Generations, One Powerful Conversation

Nikki Giovanni was 28 years old when she sat down for this conversation with a then-47-year-old James Baldwin. In a 2024 interview with Penguin Books UK, Giovanni said she discovered Baldwin’s work as a teenager and read his work over and over again. So when she was approached by PBS in 1971 to speak with one of her literary idols, she jumped at the chance, even though it meant flying across the pond to the UK.

“I said if I could do anything, I would like to meet James Baldwin,” she said. “I’d walk to London to talk to James Baldwin.”

They Kept Their Cool

One of the things that makes this interview something people can watch again and again is that while Baldwin and Giovanni don’t agree on everything, the conversation never goes off the rails. If you’re looking for some table-flipping drama, you won’t find it here. It’s easy to see the mutual respect these writers have for each other and how much they appreciate being heard.

In the same 2024 interview with Penguin Books UK, Nikki Giovanni described James Baldwin as a “great storyteller,” which she said made it easy for her to sit and listen intently to him throughout their conversation.

Beautiful Cinematography

Along with the powerful messages about Black identity and culture, fans of the interview also appreciate the cinematography.

“They turned 2 (maybe 3) cameras into absolute gold with all the various angles and shots they were getting. Masterful,” wrote someone on YouTube.

Giovanni said one of the things she loved most about the way the interview was edited for television was that it included close-up shots of their hands while they were speaking.

“Why I think it is so good, if I may, is that the British look differently at filming,” she told Penguin Books UK. “Both Jimmy and I talk with our hands. The Americans would never have photographed our hands in the same way.”

The Conversation Continues to Resonate With New Generations

Although Baldwin and Giovanni’s conversation took place over 50 years ago, it still captivates audiences today who share their favorite moments in short posts that go viral on every social media platform. A YouTube clip of the entire talk has received over 600,000 views to date and is flooded with thousands of comments.

“This should be required viewing for EVERYONE,” wrote someone.

Becoming a Collaborator

Early in the interview, Baldwin stressed that the impact of racism is extremely damaging to a Black person’s psyche. He argued that those who are oppressed are indoctrinated to believe that they are less than, and as a result, play a role in keeping themselves down.

“It was not the world that was my oppressor only,” he said. “Because what the world does to you is the world does it to you long enough and effectively enough, you begin to do it to yourself. You become a collaborator, an accomplice to your own murderers because you believe the same things they do.”

How Can a Man Love Without Morale?

When discussing gender roles in the Black community, Baldwin argued that Black men have a hard time being a loving presence at home because of the oppression and discrimination they face in the outside world.

“You get older. You get more weary, and since you cannot get a job, your morale begins to be destroyed, and the body begins to fail you. Your death approaches all because being a man, you’ve never been able to execute what a man ought to be able to do,” he said. “It’s not for anything that you have done or not done. By some arbitrary sentence. How in the world if I can’t get a job, if I can’t even get my axe out of the pawn shop, if I can’t even get money to get on the subway, how am I going to love anybody except in such an awful pain and rage that nobody could bear it?”

Bring Yourself

Giovanni pushed back on Baldwin’s position and challenged Black people to steer clear of the traditional roles she believes are destroying their relationships and families. Not being able to provide everything their family needs, she argues, is not an excuse for a Black man to not be physically present.

“The baby’s gonna sleep someplace, she’s gonna eat something, but what she needs at that moment is a man. And if the man functions as a man, which is not necessarily a provider for all that stuff, because everybody can understand why you can’t buy something. You don’t have a job, you didn’t have a job when you all was going to bed,” she said. “You’re never going to get the crib, bring yourself.”

Because I Love You, I Get the Least of You

In one of the most viral clips from the conversation, Giovanni talked about Black women receiving less than the best from their men. She suggests that if they can smile in the face of their bosses or other oppressors, they can give more to their women.

“You come home and I catch hell because I love you. I get least of you. I get the very minimum. And I’m saying, ‘fake it with me.’ Is that too much for the Black woman to ask of the Black man?” she asked.

We’ve Paid Too Much For The Country to Abandon It

James Baldwin believed the story of the Black experience in America is an important part of the nation’s history. Although he had no intention of making excuses for their plight, he told Nikki Giovanni that Black people have already been through too much to give up.

“I’m not being a missionary trying to save America, but I do know that we have paid too much for it to be able to abandon it,” he said.

Advice for Future Generations

Throughout the conversation, Baldwin stressed the importance of improving the quality of life for future generations of Black Americans. He argued that young Black people can carry the ball further than their ancestors by ensuring they know and understand their painful past, while being liberated from it. 

“He’s got to have respect for it but not be trapped by it,” Giovanni added.

We Can Get Further

James Baldwin shared his views on many of the obstacles that have been standing in the way of Black people’s progress, but the “Go Tell it On The Mountain” author was still hopeful for the future, telling Giovanni that the only way to overcome the pain of our past is to keep moving forward – something he believed we were more than ready to do.

“We have survived the roughest game in the history of the world,” he said. “No matter what we say against ourselves, no matter what our limits and hang-ups are, we have come through something, and if we can get this far, we can get further.”

Their Conversation Was Released as a Book

The transcript of the interview between Nikki Giovanni and James Baldwin was made available as a book. “A Dialogue” was published in 1973. If you happen to be lucky enough to own a first edition copy, hold on to it. The book is out of print.

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